Podcast Episode 21 Transcript – Nutritional Considerations For Plant-Based Athletes

The Ideal Nutrition Podcast

Aidan

00:00:06 – 00:00:44

Hello and welcome back to episode 21 of the Ideal Nutrition podcast. Today we’re going to do another kind of interview format so, like, a few episodes back, or quite a few episodes back, we did one on collagen where Leah interviewed me. So, to kind of makeup for that one, we’re gonna go to the other end of the spectrum and do a topic that Leah is far more well versed than I am, and we’re gonna be talking about nutritional considerations for plant-based athletes. So, this is something that I’ve always—my-—. My personal thought is that I think you can do a plant-based diet just as well as an omnivorous diet. 

Aidan

00:00:44 – 00:01:00

You can get pretty much everything you need for optimal performance through that, but there are challenges associated with that particularly under very specific circumstances. So, we’ll kind of talk through those kind-of things today really. So, starting off with, like, what are some of these common challenges that plant-based athletes face? 

Leah

00:01:00 – 00:01:40

We definitely face very specific challenges being on a plant-based diet and trying to, you know, have these athletic or performance goals, um, I’d say there’s probably three main ones. Um, the first is going to be protein intake. So, whilst a lot of vegans like, oh, you know, you don’t have to worry about protein intake like we’ll get enough. I think that’s true for the general population. I think, you know, it’s easy to meet, um, kind of like your—your protein requirements for general health and well-being on a vegan diet, but when we’re thinking about the protein requirements for athletes and how big they are, um, it can be a lot more difficult to meet those on a plant-based diet. 

Leah

00:01:40 – 00:01:58

So, that is absolutely one where I will rarely ever find—like if people come to me and they’re a plant-based athlete, I think I’ve had a very small handful actually meeting their protein requirements on a consistent basis. It would be like less than five, for sure, and I work with predominantly plant-based people so a very small percentage. 

Aidan

00:01:58 – 00:02:11

Yeah, let’s start with that. So, like, even, like, on an omnivorous diet, like, that’s a challenge for a lot of people. There’s a bit of a culture there that I—particularly amongst dieticians actually but, like, where people talk about this concept of, like, the Western world over consume protein, 

Aidan

00:02:14 – 00:02:45

And, like, as a portion or percentage of total calories and stuff like that. Firstly, that’s—that’s a low percentage of our calories, we have a large percentage coming from fat and carbs to start off with just as a general population but, like general health, we don’t really need that high of a protein intake. But when we’re talking athletes, it does get higher, and even, like, amongst powerlifters and stuff like that I see that it’s, like, it’s still something that needs to be focused on to make sure you’re reaching those targets, um, so I have a few questions. So, one of them I want to go with is, like, do you change what you’d call the evidence-based range of protein for plant-based athletes? 

Leah

00:02:45 – 00:03:26

I do and I actually increase it which makes it even a little bit harder. So, we do know that the digestibility and, like, the amino acid profile of plant-based proteins are not as suited to muscle building as, um, you know, your animal-based proteins. So, usually if you’re having plant-based proteins, you’re not digesting as much of that protein as you would be as if you were having a steak so, like, tofu versus steak. Um, and even a better example would be, like, legumes which have quite a low digestibility at times compared to steak. So, I say that generally you need at least 10% to 20% more protein on a vegan diet than a non-vegan diet. 

Leah

00:03:27 – 00:03:47

Um, so from the perspective of even, like, working with all my plant-based power lifters and people in the strength space, you know, I want them to have at least 2 grams of protein per kilo of body weight at a minimum. Where if I’m working with someone who’s not plant based, you know, maybe we have a little bit more leeway and going like 1.8 grams, um, but yeah, we definitely need more on a vegan diet. 

Aidan

00:03:48 – 00:04:18

Yeah, so, like, what—I see that being a lot easier when you’re on higher calories. So, like, one of the biggest challenges—this doesn’t cover all plant-based sources, but it’s like—most plant-based sources will have more carbs or fat than protein. So, we’ll start with—actually, let’s start with that before we go into the next thing I want to talk about, like, exceptions to that kind of general rule, like, what—what options would you go with that are not higher in carbs and fat than in protein? 

Leah

00:04:18 – 00:04:50

I talk a lot about protein efficiency, and I think it’s—it’s definitely something I’ll talk about more often in a—from a plant-based perspective because a lot of our protein sources are not efficient and talking about efficiency in terms of how many grams of protein you’re getting per 100 calories. So, my idea of an efficient source of protein would be anything where they had at least 12 grams of protein per 100 calories. If we’re thinking animal-based food, that’s actually quite low so compared that to chicken, which I couldn’t actually, 

Leah

00:04:52 – 00:05:12

But it would be like 20. Yeah, it would be about 20. Um, there—there’s nothing that comes to mind as a plant-based protein is that quite that efficient. So that’s why there is that struggle in reaching your protein intake particularly if you have some kind of calorie deficit or your calories are low. 

Aidan

00:05:12 – 00:05:38

Yeah, so that’s what I wanted to go into next so, like, calorie surplus protein starts to become a smaller percentage to get through that, say, two grams per kilogram of body weight. Going to a maintenance calorie becomes a little bit harder, but still pretty manageable particularly if you’re quite active and stuff like that, higher calorie needs. But if you go into a calorie deficit, so, like, some—a problem that I’ve always kind of seen in a challenge associated with that is like—there’s this paper on it by Eric Helms, 

Aidan

00:05:38 – 00:06:03

On, like, when you’re in a big calorie deficit or you’re getting quite lean or you’re prepping for a bodybuilding show and the range he talks about is 2.3 to 3.1 grams per kilogram of fat free mass which is almost all of your mass if you’re that lean. And so, it’s even higher than the two grams in that case, and if you then also look from the logic of being like somebody’s plant-based, we might even aim a little bit higher. How do you get around that problem? 

Leah

00:06:03 – 00:06:45

That’s a—it’s a very difficult question because I think sometimes you just have to go, okay in this particular scenario a plant-based diet is not going to be—that’s not going to be feasible to get to, like, say, three grams of protein per kilo of fat free mass. You may just not be able to get there. You can do things like just focusing on your really efficient sources of proteins and things like, um, like your soy-based foods, textured vegetable protein, tofu, um, and things like that but sometimes it’s just not feasible. I’ve definitely come across athletes who are on, like, 1600 to 1800 calories in a calorie deficit but their protein requirements are 150 plus grams. 

Leah

00:06:46 – 00:06:57

That doesn’t always work out on a plant-based diet so you kind of just have to take the loss sometimes. I’d say it’s pretty rare that I do that, like I undercut protein, but it happens sometimes for sure. 

Aidan

00:06:57 – 00:07:15

Yeah, that’s also—like honestly that’s how I work with a lot of my clients. If they’re doing that, like, even though I’m like, well, theoretically, protein needs should be a little bit higher, maybe could be a little bit higher. I do undercut it sometimes in those circumstances, it’s just like—it’s—it’s quite unrealistic. The way around that that I see some athletes using is just a ton of protein powder. 

Leah

00:07:15 – 00:07:43

Yes, which I do not recommend on a plant-based diet. I mean, I don’t recommend it in general, like, you can use it, but I usually say, like, uh, max protein powder that I want someone using is like two scoops per day, like 60 grams. I think if more of your protein is coming from protein powder than whole foods and you’re really missing out on your micronutrients and that’s when you have high risk of iron deficiency and all of those other things that are in our protein foods.

Aidan

00:07:43 – 00:07:45

And particularly, like, while calorie restricted, it’s harder— 

Leah

00:07:45 – 00:07:50

Yeah, and as a vegan where you have higher needs of some of those minerals as well. 

Aidan

00:07:50 – 00:07:58

Yeah, so that is a hard one because I do see people do it but that is something that really—yeah, is a challenge lower calories, harder to get stuff in. Yeah, interesting. 

Leah

00:07:58 – 00:08:04

And it kind of sucks too having a lot of protein powder and not a lot of whole foods. It’s just never a fun time. 

Aidan

00:08:04 – 00:08:14

Yeah, and we’ve spoken about this a few times but, like, in case this is the first time somebody listens to this podcast if you’re looking for a plant-based protein powder, what would you be looking for? 

Leah

00:08:15 – 00:08:33

So, I usually recommend two options. The first, and it’s like my gold standard option, is going to be your soy protein isolate because we know, like, the anabolic effect of soy protein isolate is very similar to whey. So, because it’s so close it’s a good win for us to kind of go for the soy protein isolate. 

Leah

00:08:34 – 00:09:09

But some people have reservations around having too much soy, um, and the research around that is vast. So, we won’t go into that rabbit hole but for some people it’s easier to go, oh let’s just go another option, um, and in which case, I’d go like a pea and rice protein blend. So, we know that protein from legumes and protein from grains are complementary in their amino acid profile. So, whilst just having pea or just having, like, a brown rice protein wouldn’t be a very complete amino acid profile. Together they make a somewhat complete, almost, amino acid profile. 

Aidan

00:09:10 – 00:09:41

Yeah, cool. Okay, so I actually—I do actually want to touch on the soy aspect. So, like, I know, like, so, like, for everyone listening, like, right now, Leah is writing a blog post on soy and how it affects things and it is a deep rabbit hole. What I actually want just from you right now, though, is like—like brief thoughts, like, how much soy is okay for somebody striving to optimise athletic performance in general? And even just maybe touch on the health aspect as well? 

Leah

00:09:41 – 00:10:31

Yeah. So, we do know, like, based on the research that I’ve come across in the systematic reviews out there, that there is not—no one huge issue with having a lot of soy in your diet, like, it’s not, like, soy definitely causes feminisation effects in men, like, we don’t have research to say that, or that it even really changes oestrogen levels in men. Um, and there is research to say that the phytoestrogen in soy is protective against a few things. Those things like, um, like breast cancer in women, prostate cancer in men potentially, evidence is kind of murky still. Um, the only time I suppose I am mindful of having too much soy would be is if a woman is looking at getting pregnant in terms of fertility.  

Leah

00:10:31 – 00:11:09

So, from what I can understand, having a—having soy in your diet does seem to improve rates of fertility to a certain point, um, and then when you get to really, really high intakes of the phytoestrogens in soy, it could potentially start to have the opposite effect and reduce fertility. So again, we don’t have hard evidence on that or exactly how much soy that is, but there was one systematic review that said that having over 100 milligrams of soy isoflavones is probably not recommended if you’re trying to get pregnant, and that would be equal to, like, 4 to 5 servings of soy in a day.

Aidan

00:11:09 – 00:11:25

Yeah, cool, awesome, and, like, something that I’ve heard—I haven’t looked into this one too closely, but my understanding is, like, the oestrogen in men kind of thing stems from, like, a case study, and there’s obviously heaps of research on this, but it stems from a case study where somebody had, like, three litres of soy milk per day for a long period of time. 

Leah

00:11:25 – 00:11:39

Yeah, in Men’s Health magazine. It was like in 2009 and it just went off like wildfire. Yeah, this guy was having three litres of soy a day, and it was a case study, and it was allegedly, like, due to the soy intake but yeah, it’s a bit misleading. 

Aidan

00:11:39 – 00:11:56

Yeah, yeah, and even if that was something that kind of translates to, like, practicality, if it was done in a larger sample sizes and controlled setting, all those kinds of things, it’s still kind of comes back to one of the things you said where it’s like low to moderate intake’s probably fine from what I understand. 

Leah

00:11:56 – 00:11:57

It’s probably even good for us. 

Aidan

00:11:57 – 00:11:58

Yeah, yeah.

Leah

00:11:58 – 00:12:13

If anything, it’s just there might be a level where it’s no longer good for us and starts going in the other direction, but I would say, looking at the research, that that amount of soy is quite high, like, you’d have to have a lot and you’d have to start displacing other foods. 

Aidan

00:12:13 – 00:12:29

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and, like, the only reason I kind of wondered that is that example of people who, like, go really deep into one thing, like, the protein powder thing as an example where it’s like doing one thing like that, and just having heaps of that as a way to get their protein in, um, it could potentially lead to that kind of thing where you’re like three litres of soy milk per day— 

Leah

00:12:29 – 00:12:31

Yeah, you could get up to that level. 

Aidan

00:12:31 – 00:12:36

Yeah, all right, cool. So, what are other challenges that plant-based athletes could face? 

Leah

00:12:37 – 00:13:23

So, you know, coming off protein and not being able to maybe get quite enough while you’re in a calorie deficit. There’s also—can you get enough calories on a plant-based diet to meet high energy requirements? Because a lot of the food on a plant-based diet is going to be really high fibre, kind of lower calorie, not very energy dense, great for dieting for people wanting to lose weight and manage appetite, may be a barrier for athletes who have really high energy requirements and need to eat a lot. Like you even see this in non—non-vegan people trying to eat predominantly whole foods like healthy, nutritious diet whilst trying to bulk or if they’ve just got really high energy requirements it can be difficult, but then imagine all of your food is super, super high fibre and satiating. 

Aidan

00:13:23 – 00:13:59

Yeah. So, let’s touch on the fibre a bit later because there’s heaps I want to talk about with that so, like, with the, like, getting enough calories in, something that is obviously fascinating is, like, people—and they make jokes about how you can have unhealthy vegan foods, like, you can get calories in but, like, a lot of people, not all of them, but, like, a lot of people who are plant-based are also health conscious or more health conscious than the average person and probably don’t wanna go too far down that route. So, say you come—somebody who is plant-based quite health conscious and they want to get more calories in, and they’ve been struggling for a long time on their own. What—is there any strategies you’d really look at it as, like, the first options or anything like that? 

Leah

00:13:59 – 00:14:38

It depends on the person, but I usually—I look at their fibre intake initially, and if it’s around that kind of 70 to 90 grams per day, which is common I see that a lot, my—my first thing is, like, okay how can we strategically reduce this fibre intake whilst maintaining the quality of their diet and their protein? Um, so, yes, I guess you could have a bunch of things like mock—mock meats and vegan junk food but that’s going to make it really hard to meet your protein requirements because unlike a lot of non-plant-based foods, those will tend to be super low protein options. So, you can’t just go out and have McDonald’s, like, all of our fast-food junk-food options are going to be low protein. 

Leah

00:14:38 – 00:15:18

So, there’s that, um, but I usually go for trying to reduce, um, fruit and veg intake to a moderate level because sometimes that can be really high in vegans, um, almost, you know, too much to meet their actual requirements for other food groups, um, and I’d also look at replacing some of their whole grains with more refined grains. So, if they’re having, like, a bunch of—uh, if they’re having, like, rye bread, maybe it makes sense to move to a white bread with a lower fibre content or using low fibre cereals like Nutri-Grain is one of my favourites as opposed to, like, Weetabix and just strategically trying to reduce that overall fibre intake. 

Aidan

00:15:18 – 00:15:53

Yeah, for sure, which it does—it does tie into the next thing that we’re going to talk about in terms of like gastrointestinal issues. So, like, it’s something I see really commonly where people who eat exclusively plant-based often partly because they have really high fibre intake and maybe we can talk about FODMAPs as well because, like, those will be—it’s in the same kind of category to a certain degree causing the same issues, um, commonly getting gastrointestinal issues, what’s your way around that with plant-based athletes? Even, like, to the point where like—because that could affect performance too. This is not just a quality of life. It can affect the performance. How would you work around that? 

Leah

00:15:53 – 00:16:28

Once again, it kind of goes back to the fibre intake, like, I—in strategically in reducing that fibre intake to a more manageable level so, say, 40 to 50 grams as opposed to 60 to 90 grams per day, I often always see an immediate reduction in symptoms, like, it’s a no-brainer. Um, we could also do things like moving to more liquid calories, a bit easier to digest, and get more food volume in an easier way, and that sometimes helps, and really focusing on chewing very fibrous food well, um, but nothing moves the needle more than just reducing fibre intake. 

Aidan

00:16:28 – 00:16:51

Yeah, and going to FODMAPs as well because you’ve mentioned in the past it’s a bit of a struggle to do that, and I can see why it would be a struggle. It’s not—not quite as bad as people going keto, vegan, like that’s—like that’s very, very restrictive but, like, FODMAPs on a plant-based diet would be a struggle. Do you still manipulate stuff with that? You still play around with FODMAP stuff? 

Leah

00:16:51 – 00:17:29

If the fibre stuff doesn’t alleviate enough of the symptoms, I’ll go into the FODMAP stuff a little bit more and just start replacing some of their daily food items with a low FODMAP option and start taking out really, really high FODMAP options, and that sometimes helps. But still, like, you’re—if you have really high food intake from high energy requirements and it’s all plant-based food, and we know that all plant-based food has some level of FODMAPs in it, you know you are going to be eating a lot of FODMAPs in general. So, if you have IBS that can be a real challenge, but sometimes manipulating those things just a little bit helps enough. 

Aidan

00:17:29 – 00:17:46

Yeah, cool and then the last thing that I was kind of thinking about as well is that—like, it’s something that I overlook very often because I want to go to more advanced stuff but, like, little things like chewing slower and stuff like that, like, particularly, like, legumes and stuff like that, um, that would be a thing. Is there any other easy wins? Is anything you got to say about that? I don’t know. 

Leah

00:17:47 – 00:18:11

In practise, the only thing that really moves the needle is reducing fibre intake, like, I’ve tried a number of things like playing with FODMAPs, probiotics, chewing foods really well, moving to, um, I guess more things like tofu instead of, like, um, like, soybeans that are, like, more fibrous, uh, but nothing is going to improve it more than just bringing down that fibre intake in total. 

Aidan

00:18:11 – 00:18:19

Yeah. Cool. Is there anything else you can think of? Any other challenges? Any—any other easy wins that you see as common for vegan athletes or plant-based athletes? 

Leah

00:18:19 – 00:19:04

I think the biggest things I would always suggest to plant-based athletes is to use really efficient sources of protein, um, make sure you’re getting enough calories because it’s very easy to under fuel on a plant-based diet. Like, that’s quite common to people just to be undercutting themselves in that way, um, and to utilise more processed foods where you can. Um, it’s—I find a lot of vegans are like, oh I don’t want to use Nutri-Grain because it has a fair bit of sugar, and not a lot of fibre, and I’m like, you need sugar and you don’t need the fibre so it’s actually the perfect option for you. So, I’d say try to get out of that mentality if you’re struggling with these things, um, and introduce more of those slightly more processed foods.

Aidan

00:19:04 – 00:19:34

It’s pretty—pretty counterintuitive but, like, when you’re, like, really far on one end of the spectrum, like, moving—moving back towards the other end of the spectrum can help a little bit. One thing that I have forgotten to ask because it’s something that I’m actually a bit more familiar with this but, like, is—it can’t be missed in this podcast really, is micronutrients. So obviously there’s certain micronutrients that are harder to get, and you’ve probably answered this question so many times in your life, but, like, what micronutrients matter? And should you be aware of or pay attention to? And what—how would you go about addressing those? 

Leah

00:19:34 – 00:20:08

Yeah, so I just—talking about vegans in general or people on a plant-based diet, B12 is a massive one. So, if you’re—like it’s a non-negotiable for me if you’re on any kind of plant-based diet wherever you are on the spectrum, and you’re cutting out animal foods take a B12 supplement. We know that B12 really is only found in animal foods, um, and the ones in plant-based foods, like, you can find it in nutritional yeast and some mushrooms and some fortified foods, but you’d have to be so mindful about your intake that it becomes really hard to hit that consistently and then—

Aidan

00:20:08 – 00:20:18

Cutting in on that one, like, how long does it take? Like, if somebody switches vegan and they have no intake, how long does it take before, like, it starts to affect—I don’t know—energy? 

Leah

00:20:18 – 00:20:39

It takes a long time to be honest to develop a B12 deficiency it can take a couple of years of being vegan with no supplementation. So, I’ll quite often see people who have been getting their blood tests done, they’re not taking a B12 supplement, and they’re like, oh my B12 has always been fine. Like, how long you’ve been vegan? And they’re like, oh—like, when was your last blood test? Like, oh you know, I’ve been vegan for, like, a year. 

Leah

00:20:39 – 00:21:26

I’m like okay yeah because your B12 was probably really high and it’s slowly come down over this time. So, you know, in a couple of years you’re probably going to—you’re going to be deficient if you’re not supplementing. It’s guaranteed unless you’re having, like, ungodly amounts of nutritional yeast in your diet you need a B12 supplement, and the reason I push that so much with my clients is that it’s not like iron deficiency where you’re feeling fatigued, um, and there’s all these like ramifications, but there’s not really a long—super long-term consequence. If you’re B12 deficient for long enough, you are going to experience things like long lasting nerve damage and brain damage. That’s so scary, um, so there’s irreversible consequences of B12 deficiency. So yeah, 100% non-negotiable. 

Aidan

00:21:26 – 00:21:28

All right. Well, then, other micronutrients? 

Leah

00:21:28 – 00:21:56

Yes, so—there is so many but the next probably important one would be iron that would come up a lot. So, you know, iron deficiency is something I see a lot in practise, um, and it can be really difficult particularly for people with a menstrual cycle to get enough, um, iron on a plant-based diets. So, iron requirements are about 1.8 times the amount on a vegan diet as opposed to when you’re eating animal products. 

Leah

00:21:57 – 00:22:29

So, not only are the sources of, you know, your—your predominant iron sources lower in iron than animal foods but you also need a lot more iron. So, you’ve got these, like, competing things that makes it really difficult to meet your requirements. Some people can just focus on getting enough iron rich foods in their diet and doing things like pairing it with vitamin C rich foods to boost absorption and whatnot, but I do often put people on a kind of lower dose iron supplements just to supplement their diet particularly if they have a menstrual cycle. 

Aidan

00:22:29 – 00:22:33

Yeah, it makes it easy. It’s hard to go—like a lot of women struggle to get enough for iron anyway so it’s like—you add this burden on top of it, so yeah, it’s a challenge. 

Leah

00:22:37 – 00:22:48

It’s really difficult to do consistently and then I definitely use that kind of iron supplementation if there’s also a calorie deficit on top of that.

Aidan

00:22:48 – 00:22:54

Yeah, exactly. Cool. Do you want to quickly list off—there’s one other question I gotta ask, do you want to quickly list off any other nutrients? 

Leah

00:22:54 – 00:23:32

Yes, so let’s just quickly go through the rest like zinc is definitely one particularly when it comes to men. Like, we know men have quite high zinc requirements as opposed to women, um, and zinc requirements are about 1.5 times the amount on a vegan diet as opposed to non-vegan diet, and there’s actually not a lot of plant-based foods that are, like, super rich in zinc. So, that’s one that may need supplementing or particular attention paid to it, um, and then you’ve also got smaller things like selenium and iodine and vitamin D and things that are more difficult to get on a plant-based diet, which, depending on the individual, might need attention as well. 

Aidan

00:23:33 – 00:23:43

Yeah, yeah, cool. The only other question I’ve got because I heard you say this in another podcast, I’ve never really thought about too hard before this, but, like, what’s the difference between vegan and plant-based? 

Leah

00:23:43 – 00:24:26

Oh yeah. So, it’s mainly just, like, the ethics surrounding it. So, plant—a plant-based diet is just that. It’s a—it’s a diet. So, it’s when you’re eating predominantly plant-based, like, foods and very few animal products. Vegan kind of comes into this ethical spectrum where it’s more or less a lifestyle, and based around your opinions on, like, animal cruelty and the environment, um, so vegans will be very strict in the fact that they don’t have any animal products whatsoever. Um, and that will also extend to things in their household like not being tested on animals and their clothes not being made from wool and stuff like that. So, one’s a diet and one is more or less like an ethical thing. 

Aidan

00:24:26 – 00:24:52

Yeah, like, that kind of blew my mind to hear. I don’t know how common knowledge that is or, like, it’s probably, like, a year or two ago that you said that and it’s, like, it’s crazy that I’ve been a dietician before that and not, like—like—like I knew a little bit of it, but, like, I just, like, kind of, like, use vegan as a cover-all term being, like, if you don’t eat any—any meat, dairy, eggs, et cetera, like, that’s vegan, and then there’s, like, a different level of vegan for, like, the other ethical stuff as well. Like I always thought of it, like, vegan for—and I don’t know.

Leah

00:24:52 – 00:24:54

Oh, like, vegan level one or vegan level two?

Aidan

00:24:55 – 00:24:57

Yeah, yeah, and I don’t know if I’m sounding like an idiot by saying that. 

Leah

00:24:57 – 00:24:58

No.

Aidan

00:24:58 – 00:25:11

But yeah and, like, I’ve always viewed plant-based—like plant based is obviously a much broader term. You can be predominantly plant based. You can be—yeah, there’s a spectrum there, um, but it’s really interesting just, like, thinking through that. So, I was, like, it’s worth sharing in case I’m not the only person who did not know that. 

Leah

00:25:11 – 00:25:12

Totally. 

Aidan

00:25:12 – 00:25:19

Cool. Okay, well, that will wrap up episode 21 of the podcast. So, thank you to everybody who has listened and I hope you enjoyed it.